Happy Mother’s Day weekend. To celebrate, here’s a conversation between Los Angeles-based writer Samantha Stahl and her mother, Marisa, a therapist and former aerobics instructor-turned-competitor. Enjoy <3

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I appreciate everything about my mother, Marisa. She is my constant companion, the voice in my head, my literal idol. She has taught, encouraged, and guided me to walk in a straight line when all I want to do is fall to the floor.

Something about my mother is that she is strong, and always has been. In every sense of the word. What stands out in particular, though, is the way she takes care of her physical health — I can never remember a time when I have not been impressed by the way her biceps look in a spaghetti strap tank top. She is always able to help me lift furniture, and will carry my entire body in her arms if wanted, or if necessary. I am a grown adult woman with muscles of my own. This strikes me as impressive, and also rare. I am grateful for a mother who can move.

My mother is also a therapist, and many ask me how that is for me, to have in my bloodline and in conversation and generally around. I can speak on this at this moment to definitively say that my mother’s word is Truth to me nearly all of the time, and her knowledge is very precious to me.

She is a deeply discerning and emotionally perceptive person, and her thoughts that I disseminate to friends are often referred to as “Pearls.” Below are her Pearls of Wisdom for Mom Gossip, with insights into finding God in aerobics, thong leotards, not minding what happens, and advice for young women to grow with grace.

—Samantha on her mother, Marisa

Marisa: I told my phone to call you, and it called my mom. It didn’t even go, “...this number’s been disconnected....” It kind of hung out there and went click, click, click... Interesting. Oh, I heard this thing on Larry Mantle this morning that ice baths are out, and guess what’s in?

Samantha: Hot.

Extreme heat! It stimulates the mother cells, which take care of all the baby cells.

You are my mother cell taking care of my baby cells. And speaking of taking care, I wanted to start by asking: what does the picture of health look like to you?

The picture of health. Picture of health, picture of health... The picture of health can do what she wants to do physically and emotionally. She is in balance. The care that she takes of herself is evident — not just physically, but it radiates out of her. And she has energy, extra energy to share with those around her.

More of a vignette of health, but okay. That’s a good philosophy for being a therapist and a fitness instructor. How does your therapy practice align with your health practices?

In both professions, I see my role as realizing potential in the people that I’m lucky enough to share space with. Connection is of paramount importance. You can’t draw anything out of anybody, and no one is going to trust you or dig deep — either physically or emotionally — if they don’t connect with you and feel that you are authentic and present. You need to be both in both careers.

Let’s get into your aerobics journey. I know it was a huge part of your life when you were my age, and that you were nationally successful and very beloved in Los Angeles.

That’s a linear trajectory. I moseyed into my first aerobics class when I was 18 — Cheryl’s Fitness Center on Santa Monica Boulevard in West LA. There was this very tiny, short little instructor who was so adorable, and she was jumping around and doing these things in choreographed succession that I had never seen before in my life.

It was like I had found God. I took the class right after that one, too. And then when I went home, and I did little routines that I could remember from class in front of my mirror. On the same day, that same night. I went back the next day. And then the next day. And then the next.

After a while, they asked me to teach, so I taught my first class there with my notes and my cassette tape. Then, I taught at the Santa Monica Sports Connection, and then Spectrum. Then, the crown jewel — Sports Club — opened and everybody was like, “Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, who’s gonna teach there?” They took very, very few of us. But they took me!

I taught the first class on the first day. They were signing memberships in a trailer as they were building the gym, because it was so luxurious at the time. There was nothing like it. It was the place to be. They had pool and racquetball and state-of-the-art everything, and all the celebrities were there. It was quite the scene. The classes were packed and it was just literally the best thing ever.

The picture of health can do what she wants to do physically and emotionally. She is in balance.

Then, I discovered aerobics competitions. Sports Club sponsored me and got me a choreographer. But I came in second, which doesn’t get you to the National Finals. However, the runner-up gets one more chance to go to Nationals by competing in the Open. The Open is the hardest, because everybody from across the country who just missed qualifying by one place is there.

Sports Club was like, “Yeah, we sponsored you once. We’re not sponsoring you again.” So my class raised all the money I needed for the plane ticket, for the hotel, everything. I came in second at the Open and I made it to Nationals.

I’m literally crying. This story makes me cry.

It was good times, babe. It was good times. Aerobics was everything. It used to be the height of sexiness. There was one club I taught at where guys were teaching and they would stuff their tights. They would put socks in their crotches and teach.

Some club owners wanted us to have our hair and makeup perfect every class. We had to look a certain way to teach. One always said, “I don’t care what you look like at the end of class, but at the beginning of class, I want you to look great.”

I’ll never forget, the first day, this one instructor came in with a full-on thong leotard, and I was like, “Oh, my god!” We would wear tights and a high-cut leotard, but it would cover part of your butt. But she came in wearing the thong leotard and the leg warmers, and that was it. From then on —

You wore the thong leotard.

Of course! And then it progressed from the thong leotard to the thong bottom and the bra top. It was adorable.

But you’ve never worn a lot of makeup, especially compared to other moms or even Grandma. Why?

I often think about that. I don’t get my nails done. The hair, nails, makeup stuff.

Dave (my dad, from another room): Too much working out.

He’s not wrong. I put all that energy into working out. I was working out two, three times a day, and never did it when I was younger. It became a habit. Working out was more of a priority than looking a certain way, makeup-wise.

Wasn’t working out in your 20s more aesthetic-driven than wellness-driven?

It was body. Body was everything. There was a lot of pressure — to be in front of 45 people, ten times a week was not easy. Half the time, I would wear a sweatshirt tied around my butt when I felt self-conscious, and everyone would make fun of me for it. Your body needed to look a certain way.

It’s hard for me to appreciate certain practices when I don’t look or feel better. Like, why am I doing this? Why do you do things that you know are good for you but don’t have perceptible effects?

If I know I’m doing something good for my organs and my internal health, that’s enough for me, at least at this age. It wasn’t at your age. I had to see it. My external appearance was everything, and I really couldn’t care less about what was going on on the inside. But now, as I age, that’s more precious to me. I’m taking better care of that now. I’d like to be around, and things just happen. Many things are out of my control. So, I try to control the things I can.

True that. God grant me the serenity.

Speaking of God granting you the serenity, let’s move to more of your spiritual practice. Your eclecticism has led me to some interesting places. I feel like it’s all mixed up into something that works for you, not following a dogma.

My philosophy is based on finding meaning in life itself. I want to be the best version of myself, have the most self-awareness possible, and be as intentional as I can be in each moment.

I try not to take things personally. When someone does something I don’t like, I try not to be reactive, to take a breath, and to recognize that that person is having a moment in their own life. I remember that we are separate beings and I am here to be alongside that person, not to lead them. I am here to support when asked. That has taken a tremendous amount of angst and responsibility off my shoulders, which has created a sense of calm in the past 2-3 years.

I have zero control over anything that happens in anyone’s life. All I can do is be there. No matter what happens, I will handle it. If I lose them, if they get hurt, if they die, I will be okay.

Even if I died, you would be okay?

I would have to be okay. I think that way about Daddy. I think that way about Ally. I think that way about me. I think that way about everything.

That’s where my Buddhism practice comes in. Everything is temporary. Every relationship is temporary. People get sick. People die. People make dumb decisions. People have accidents. People’s lives take left turns that they don’t foresee. It has not been my turn yet. I’ve been intensely fortunate, and I am so grateful for that. But, I don’t expect that my luck will continue until the day I die.

I do think about the fact that I could lose anybody at any time all the time. Buddhism teaches you that you have to know that your most beloved people can die today. There’s something in the acceptance of that. That’s what non-attachment means. It doesn’t mean that you are not going to be ruined or devastated, and I would not leave the fetal position for two months. It means that that could happen, and people get through it, and I will make my way. I don’t know how, and I hope I never have to, but I know that it could happen.

The people who suffer are those who act like they’re dying every day of their lives. I vowed never to live my life like that. Instead, I bring myself back and listen. I want every moment to be intentional. I’m not perfect, and I’m going to stray, but I want to remember how I want to be. I want to be intentional enough to say, “Oh, you’re drifting. Bring yourself back.”

It takes a lot of self-awareness. In every conversation with my patients, everything — I ask myself how I want to show up. I want every moment to exist as it is. Having my lane, and knowing when I am drifting.

Growing up, we had no junk food, no fast food, no Disney Channel, no Nickelodeon, no Bratz dolls. No iCarly. What’s the deal?

It’s not like we just fed you edamame and spinach. You had pizza and Trader Joe’s enchiladas and cookies, but you didn’t have Doritos or McDonald’s or Coke. We didn’t eat that stuff. I mean, Daddy ate it, but I didn’t. Well, I used to. Oh, those were such good days. I used to go from Taco Bell—I’d get like three tacos and a bean and cheese burrito—to Carl’s Jr. and get a baked potato. There were three places that I’d love to go in quick succession. ‘Cause I worked out so much, I could eat anything I want.

Anyways, I didn’t eat junk like that, so why would I feed you that? We don’t put that in our body, so why would we feed you something we didn’t feed ourselves?

When it comes to the Nickelodeon and Bratz, I think there’s better things to watch, better things to do. And, in first grade, when that kid with the little bowl cut called you sexy? He had an older brother, and I bet that’s where he learned that word. I thought, “You know what? These girls are going to grow up so fast anyway. Why would I add to that?” Let me try to tap the brakes again as much as I can, because the world is going to grow them up so much faster.

Shit’s going to happen. The stuff I can control, I’m going to control. When you were out with anyone else, their rules were fine. But in our house, we’re not getting Slurpees at 7-Eleven. Except for the all-you-can-drink Slurpees. Then we’re taking the big martini glass and we’re doing that.

What would you like to see women my age do to grow with grace?

Oh God, I just want to wrap my arms around all of you.

I would tell you to slow down. Life is going too fast. Your brains have not adapted to how fast technology, social media, and life are going. It’s not your fault. It’s not your particular brain. It’s that human brains are not adapting. You’ve been bombarded with more than you can handle physiologically, and you’re feeling tremendous pressure because of it.

Growing with grace — I think you should grow with health. You all are doing the absolute best you can to keep your heads above water, and to stay as healthy as you can, to not compare yourself to everything and everybody that you see.

Forge your own path. Be successful in a way that matters to you. Be challenged in a way that matters to you. That’s what I wish for you.

I wish that too.

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My mum Julie is the most abundantly loving person I know. She was born in a small town in Quebec, traveled the world, trained as a classical pianist, and then as a speech-language therapist. After meeting my dad, she moved to New Zealand with him to have my brother, and I grew up in a smaller and warmer country. She really embodies joyful warmth and a nurturing spirit. She is always welcoming stray friends to the family dinner table, dropping me off blessed pumpkin seeds, second-hand wool jumpers, and stews. She gives every facet of her life the same kind of care, love, and enthusiasm.

Since my brother and I moved out of home, she has thrown herself into life in a very inspiring way. She’s started painting, drawing, doing pottery, joined her church choir, and cycles everywhere avidly. I think we can all take something from mum’s approach to life, and tap into the endless well of beauty and divinity she seems directly connected to. Recently, she sent me a message saying, “I feel close to you when we are online together.”

I caught my mum near the end of Lent, which led us to discuss her relationship to her Catholic faith, which is very intertwined with her intuitive and joyful approach to health.

—Romily Marbrook

How does your faith influence your life?

My faith is at the center of everything, completely. It’s like a sun inside me. I live on earth, but I feel very connected to another invisible world. Everything brings me back to it: you, my children, people around me, my workmates, my friends, my sisters, music, art, nature. Walking inside churches where so many others pray settles my eyes and my soul.

I pray a lot, especially on my bike. I always start with, thank you for protecting me on the road this morning, thank you for looking after me, always. Then I think of you, protect Romily, stay with her, and the same thing for your brother, for everyone. I thank God for always making His presence felt to me. I don’t know how to describe it, but it’s like a cuddle, like the feel of a merino or cashmere sweater. I think that if you can feel the pleasure of a merino or cashmere sweater, you can feel the pleasure of God’s cuddle.

How has your faith evolved throughout your life?

Enormously. When I was a little girl, I had a lot of faith, or a strong connection with Jesus; I think the word “faith” doesn’t quite translate what it is about the feeling of being touched by almighty love. But my connection faded when I grew up. I stopped connecting with it because it felt a little naff, and I didn’t see anything I liked in the religion as it was being practiced. When I arrived in New Zealand, I met a lot of Māori people, and I loved the way they lived in their faith. When you and your brother arrived in my world, it was one of the biggest shocks of my life. I was like, oh my gosh, wow! I remember seeing you and being so in love with you. I cried, you’re so beautiful, it’s incredible. It was clear to me that it wasn’t just me who did that. You were like little gifts from the sky.

I’ve always known that before I was conscious of my faith, or my connection to God, I felt like I had a petite joie in me. Since I started going to mass again, it’s clear to me where this joy comes from. Everything I do is informed by something else. It can be a bit contentious to talk about my connection with God, so I go very gently with it. People at my work see me come in with a rosary wrapped around my bike, they think it’s funny and that it looks quirky and cute. I like this. It’s approachable. Having lovely, soft, and gentle connections with people around me makes me feel good. It gives me a lot of hope.

How did your approach to health and existing in the world change when you moved from Quebec to New Zealand?

Well, I’ve never liked processed food; it’s always made me feel sick. When I lived in Grand-Mère as a child, I didn’t have much choice because it was such a small town. My mother only ever made good meals. We occasionally went to A&W, or to get hot dogs at a local shop called Chez Auger. When I moved to Montreal, I discovered an organic shop called Frenco’s on St. Laurent Boulevard that sold things in bulk: tofu, organic peanut butter, veggie patties. I’d never seen anything like it before.

I loved moving here because food is made on a much smaller scale. In North America, when you walk into the supermarket, and it’s minus 40 outside, and you see a pineapple or a passionfruit, you think, that’s not right! Everything in New Zealand, everything, was so crispy and fresh. Fresh fish was extraordinary, the milk tasted so much better. Now, they’ve added permeate, so you need to buy raw milk if you want it to taste good. When I arrived in New Zealand in the 90s, all the milk tasted like that, the meat, everything was so good. I felt people had a different kind of care. I liked that there was wine made here. I think that wine is good for you. I have one glass of wine when I feel stressed, and I’m cured. It’s amazing.

How did you get into the realm of organic food?

Good question. I think I used to read underground newsletters about it in Montreal. In Grand-Mère, we had one organic food shop that my mother would laugh about, saying they sell things for three times the normal price! But I went inside, and looked around like, wow, it’s enlightened in here! I loved it, and I bought incense from them. I think that was my first contact with organic food.

When I think about what you do for your health, it all seems very intuitive to me. You really just do things that make you feel good.

Yes, I eat fruit and vegetables every day. I always have some apples in my lunchbox. I feel like it cleanses my body. Now and then, I hear about a new fad, and I’m always so excited to try it. Like my turmeric tea with honey. I put my milk in my cup, I put my honey in it, a little turmeric, saffron and pepper, then a little bit of warm water inside to dissolve. It’s very important that you don’t put honey in boiling water, it’s a living organism! My pinkie is always my guide for temperature.

I always drink lukewarm beverages. It just makes me feel so good! I feel like the warm water goes everywhere in my body. It’s a strange and beautiful thing.

What do your mornings look like? What are the things you do that make you feel good and ready to start your day?

I get up, and I always look at the sunrise. I take pictures of it every morning. I do a prayer, I thank God for giving me a good night of sleep, even if it wasn’t very good. I thank Him for giving me a good job where I can be late without issue. I always have to massage my eyes with a flannel and warm water, and I like to stretch while I do it. It feels good to look after the gift of seeing.

I wash and alternate between hot and cold water quite often when I’m getting ready in the morning. I like to keep my face wet when I apply my creams, they feel like barriers around me. Then I like to put a little natural foundation around my nose and eyes, and I love to put a little rouge around my nose.

Then I brush my teeth, but I don’t actually brush my teeth, I brush my cheeks, my tongue, even underneath. I don’t want to wear my enamel, I want to keep my teeth forever. At night, I brush them very thoroughly, but I don’t eat anything at night, so why should I brush them in the morning? I’ve been doing it for years and I don’t have any cavities. My teeth are very strong.

I then often get into the bath and wash my feet. It does me so much good to put hot water on my feet in the morning. It is a humble thing to do.

After that, I do my morning yoga. I love it.

When I get dressed, I always have to wear things I feel comfortable in. I only buy secondhand clothes with natural fibers. All the chemicals they put in new clothes are gone when you buy them secondhand; they’ve already been softened! I find it so boring to go into a shop to buy brand new clothes.

When did you start doing yoga?

When I was studying music at university, I did yoga classes. Yoga and swimming were the only physical courses we were allowed to do because they didn’t want us to hurt our hands. I loved it. I’ve done yoga all through my life. I’ve never gone to the same class religiously, but in my own way, I’ve found something that works for me.

I also bike to work every single day, rain or shine. I don’t want to worry about parking. I feel so nimble on my bike, I feel as if I am flying above everyone! I’m very fortunate, I feel loved by the sky. I feel as if the sky is looking after me, and I would never want to be complacent about that.

What are some things you do when you get home to finish your day?

I don’t have very good routines when I get back home. I go on my Facebook, I waste a lot of time on it. I love to watch baby reels and my Catholic reels. I love my Catholic reels.

I eat the same thing almost every week: a lot of eggs, organic chicken liver once a week, red salmon, and little strips of steak. After dinner, I’ll do pottery, draw, and write in my journal, which I do very frequently. I drew your apartment recently, but it’s not very good.

I’ll practice my piano or my choir songs. I always do yoga before bed, it prepares me so well for sleep. I do little prayers when I’m in bed. I thank God for my day, and ask him to protect everyone I love.

How is Lent changing your daily routines?

I eat a lot more moderately, I pray more, I give more to the less fortunate, especially women I see on the street. Lent is about three things: fasting, praying at your weakest moment to connect with God, and practicing generosity. (I started fasting at the beginning of Lent, and I felt very fatigued; I re-read the regulations and they say that after 60 you shouldn’t fast anymore, so I stopped.) During Lent, time seems to slow down. I took the week off work to slow it even more.

Lent allows me to think more about God and Jesus’s life. It’s about loving others like ourselves. To me, this means we have to start by loving ourselves, warts and all. Forever forgiving. When I am trying to improve myself for the sake of solely feeling better, the feeling it gives me soon wears off. But if I’m doing so to be better at distributing God’s gifts, it feels everlasting.

When do you feel at your healthiest?

When I slow down and take the time to do what counts for me. Connecting with my family, organizing nice means to commune on. To look after my children, giving them food and going out with them. Listening to my children’s wisdom, they are so full of it. Going to mass every week, and more if possible. Meditating on the sacred texts we read in mass. The Psalms are so incredible! When I do my hobbies, especially when I practice my choir’s Gregorian music. When I am physically active and look after my earth vehicle. When I am in nature, when I eat well, when I write in my diary…

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More Mom Gossip:

My mom was my first example of health, and the most steadfast and exemplary soldier of routine. She’s centered her life around wellbeing in the most private manner, with zero social media, no external output of self, no seeking of attention or praise… She is most certainly the tree who falls in the forest when no one is there to hear it.

Every morning since I can remember, my mom has woken up before the sun rises to move her body, often alongside my dad. She eats clean, meditates, prays, and maintains rich social connections. She does and has done all of this — never privy to the current and fading wellness trends.

She was reading Mark Hyman when I was a baby, long before he was taken seriously. She had an acupuncturist and has always been discerning about supplements. She does tasks in silence without the goal of “lowering her cortisol,” and she ate a high protein diet before we were stringing those words together...

She is the epitome of wellbeing and she does it all silently, for no one but herself, and her vessel, allowing up to show up as a mom and teacher and friend with vigor and vitality. She has been the most radiant example of what decades of taking care of yourself looks like, and I just hope to keep up with her.

—Chloe Chandler

Starts recording.

I take the fifth!

I don’t think that’s how that goes.

[…]

I wanted to start at the beginning. You’ve been working out and eating clean for as long as I can remember. How long does this predate my existence? What piqued your interest?

I have been working out religiously since junior high school, around age 13. Middle school. I did sports. I was never stellar, but I was fine.

I wasn’t either.

My earliest memories of working out were doing Jane Fonda in our basement on a VHS tape. It was like pilates, and she always had the greatest leg warmers and outfits.

At that time, were you doing these videos because it was fun, or did you want your body to look a certain way?

Oh yeah, I wanted my body to look a certain way.

At 13?

Definitely.

How do you feel about that now? Are you disturbed by this, or do you think that’s part of what it means to be a woman?

I can’t speak for other women, but that’s how it’s always been for me. My closest friends’ body types were very different than mine, and that played a role. Most of them were tall and bean poles, and I’ve always been short.

Did you care about your diet at that point too, or was it just exercise?

I cared about my diet, but I was a kid. I remember eating Chipwiches at school. Nanny always cooked our meals. We never had fast food. I was eating balanced. I don’t remember many snacks in the house either. Ice cream was always our thing because that’s what [our] nanny loved too. I think that never really went away for me.

You worked out through all three pregnancies. Did you change your routine for each pregnancy? What was that like?

With you, I didn’t know any better. I tried to keep running as long as I could. I tried to do yoga as long as I could, but I got frustrated and felt out of control of my body. I walked. I did the machines at the gym. I remember the moment in pregnancy when exercise became frustrating.

Did it get easier with Olivia and then with Brody?

No, it got harder [laughs]. You wanted honesty! I think with Brody I gained 65 pounds. I could’ve been a more graceful pregnant woman. You see these pregnant women now who are so cute, and I wasn’t like that. I was scared out of my mind.

Growing up, I always felt like you weren’t a person with many emotional attachments to food. It always appeared to serve as fuel. Do you have emotional memories tied to food?

I enjoy food, but I will find a way to nourish myself without cooking because I don’t enjoy it. I love when people cook for me, and I enjoy going out to eat.

You like chicken and vegetables and pizza.

It’s bad to say, but if I could eat whatever I wanted without knowing the nutritional value, I would eat pizza and lasagna every night. And ice cream. And raw cookie dough. This is probably not the way you wanted the interview to go.

No, this is great. […] I want to talk about P90X because that was such a thing in our house. I remember you doing it, dad doing it, and I did it sometimes with you guys. What was the P90X craze about?

I loved Tony Horton. I don’t remember how we ended up getting it. I loved the people in the videos. They were like our friends. It was hard. P90X1 was better than P90X2. Leg days were the worst. There were times we couldn’t walk up the stairs or sit on the toilet without hurting.

You and Dad work out together, usually at the same time, every morning since I can remember. I remember waking up to the sound of the treadmill going at 6am. Do you think working out together has had any impact on your relationship?

Having similar lifestyles in that sense, you don’t realize it at the time, but it has kept us both going all these years.

Could you see yourself being with someone who doesn’t work out?

No, I don’t think so. I value the lifestyle, and I would prefer to be with someone who values it as well. You don’t realize it when you’re 20 or 25, but now that we’re 55 and 56 years old, it’s like all the years of hard work have come to fruition. I feel like I’m 25, and mentally even better than 25. Physically, I feel like I can do most of the same things daily. Maybe I couldn’t run a marathon now like I did at 25, but I could do most of the training I did then. If one of us had stopped working out, it would have changed our relationship. Not in a bad way, but it would have been different. We would have aged differently.

What is your favorite and least favorite form of exercise?

My favorite is cardio.

Really?

Yes. If I didn’t have to do weights, I wouldn’t. I lift weights for my health, but I prefer cardio. My favorite is walking, but it’s walking after I’ve done the hard work. At the end of the day when I walk, it’s calming. It’s not something I have to put much effort into, so even if I’m tired I go. I do love running. I love how I feel after a run. I can’t imagine not being able to run, because nothing else feels as good to me.

Let’s talk about running. You’ve been running since you were how old?

I never ran track, but I was probably in junior high when I took up running.

And you’re now?

56.

So you’ve been running for 40 years.

Yes, about.

And you don’t have any chronic pain. Why do you think you’ve been able to run for decades and remain pain-free?

Because I balance it out. I don’t run every day. When I have tried, my body starts to break down. I run four times a week, and that has been a sweet spot for me. Even when I was younger training for a marathon, my body didn’t like that. It was one and done for me.

What do you like about running?

I like being able to. I can’t imagine not being able to do it. I love sweating, and there aren’t many things that get me sweating as much as a run does. Except now that I’m sitting here sweating. So except for perimenopause, I guess.

You run in silence.

Yes, in silence. Whether it’s on the treadmill or outside, I always run in silence. I drive in silence too. I do a lot in silence. I like it.

That must mean things are sorted in your mind palace to be comfortable with that.

I often just count my blessings when I’m in silence.

Really?

Yes. And on the way to work I’ll listen to affirmations.

I didn’t know that.

(Chloe’s sister): It’s true. Last year, I went to work with mom and she made me listen to affirmations the entire way.

In this decade of your life, what are your current goals exercise-wise? What are you striving for?

At this point in my life, I want to stay healthy and fit. To me, this means I can get down on the floor and play with my dog. I can run, I can jump, and not hurt myself. I can put my leg up in the shower to shave and not pull a muscle. Just keep everything feeling good. Young, I guess. I feel young.

Speaking of dogs, you and Dad have always had a dog together. Do you think this plays a role in how active you are?

I remember when I got Rosie, I said that dog is getting walked no matter what. I have walked her at least three miles every day since I’ve had her. She’s been a huge factor in my life as far as walking is concerned. I could say I wouldn’t go out on half the days if I didn’t have her.

It must teach you a lot about consistency and discipline, and the necessity of things getting done whether you want to do them or not, because you have another creature’s well-being in your hands.

Yes, I feel like I owe it to her. Plus, walking has brought me deep friendships.

Is that how you feel about yourself too? Like you owe it to yourself?

Yes. I’m afraid of stopping and not being able to do it. I am afraid of getting sick. But now I’m able-bodied and grateful to be. My “whys” have changed as I’ve gotten older, but I’m not stopping. I can’t. I’d lose my mind. We’ve been through a lot of hardships and through them all I’ve worked out, and that is something I know I can always do for my mental health.

On mental health, was there ever a time in your life where diet and exercise were more unhealthy than healthy?

I am a person who cares about how I look in clothes. It is always on my mind. Sometimes throughout my life, working out was the only thing that kept me at a healthy weight. But I’ve learned that it doesn’t matter how much exercise I do—

C & A in unison: You can’t out-exercise a bad diet.

I’ve seen it on myself over the years. Eating healthy is the first line of fire.

My whole life you have always been extremely natural and minimal with your cosmetics. You’ve never had any work done. Do you feel different pressures as you get older?

No. Not to say I wouldn’t want to get rid of wrinkles here and there. But I would never undergo elective procedures. We all age if we’re lucky, and you do your best to look your best at the age you are. Age gracefully. In my opinion, a 75-year-old with cosmetic surgery still looks like a 75-year-old with cosmetic surgery. If you think about movie stars and actors who do it, in the beginning they look fine, but as they age it starts to look like they’ve had a lot of work done.

I also don’t want to inject anything into my body. I’m scared of going to the doctor anyway.

You’ve always had quite an extensive and expensive supplement routine. We’ve always been a middle-class family. Why was it important to you to financially prioritize supplements?

Because if you don’t have your health, you don’t have a lot. I prioritize it because I’m okay with spending on things I think are important for my health. I would rather do that than buy an expensive bag or clothing item all the time. And it does make a difference. Bad supplements are not as effective. So I’ve always tried to get better quality ones.

You and Dad raised three very health-conscious children. Was that a spoken decision between the two of you, or did you raise and feed us the way you did yourselves?

Dad and I have a lot of things in common. We also have things that aren’t in common. But one thing we share is how we wanted to raise you guys. We weren’t feeding ourselves crap, so why feed you that? It never occurred to me to keep Oreos or things like that in the house. We didn’t care about you being on sports teams, but we cared that you moved your bodies. [That you] just did something.

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This conversation took place at Sarah’s home in Silver Spring, MD, just before her 90th birthday in September. It spans everything from her farm upbringing and decades as a director of Christian education, to her rug hooking practice and strategies for handling “annoying people.”

Truly so honored to share these stories with you. I’ll let Claudia take it from here :)

Grandma Gossip: Sarah by Claudia

My grandma just turned 90 in September and has a very vibrant social life and artistic practice. She grew up on a farm in Richmond, VA, and now lives in Silver Spring, MD. I am inspired by her way of paying close attention to the natural world and changing of the seasons, as well as the kindness she bestows on everyone around her. —Claudia Azalde

What does health, or being healthy, mean to you?

It means your whole approach to life — what you eat, and what you do. To be positive, happy; to look around you and see all of the good things that we have and to be thankful for those.

I think your mental health affects your whole body. In the doctor’s checkup, they always ask you how you feel emotionally… It’s so good that they are asking that.

How do you start and end your days?

I have a little prayer that I say each morning from Martin Luther:

Thank you for a new day and protect me during this day and keep me from sin. I commend my life to you, my body, my soul and all that is mine.

I am religious. I trained to be a director of Christian education in college, and I felt called to do that. When I was growing up, we had a director of Christian education in our church, and she modeled helping young people. We had a youth group and went on trips and had programs and activities. That meant a lot to me, and I thought, “That’s what I want to do.” So I worked for 25 years in three different churches as a director of Christian education. It meant a lot to me in my life.

I like to go out and walk, particularly in the morning. My energy levels have diminished since having COVID, but I like to walk in the morning and in the evening around dusk.

I like to do some kind of creative activity in the daytime if I can, usually fiber art or watercolor. There are a lot of creative things you can do around the house as well, like rearranging your furniture or deciding what to wear or what you want to eat.

Now that I’m alone, sometimes I put flowers on the table or light a candle when I have dinner to make it special. I think that it’s important to eat slowly, and appreciate each bite. To taste your food, and enjoy it and not rush through it. That is something I work on every meal.

Are there any mantras or principles that guide your day to day?

In my old age, I’ve been trying to appreciate each moment and not think so much about what I’m going to do tomorrow. This is the day that God has given us, and we need to live that day and not worry so much about tomorrow. This is the day we have.

I had a friend, and she knew I was religious. She asked me, “Do you believe in God with all of these awful things happening?”

And I said, “Well, God is not doing all those things, we’re doing them and he gave us free will. We’re not puppets, he gave us choices and we have been making the wrong choices.”

This friend was Buddhist, and I thought I might be able to learn something new from her because Buddhists have a lot of good qualities. She was over at my house one day and noticed the little hanging I have that is embroidered with the words, “This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.” She read it and liked it so much. Later, she had ALS. Before she died, she wrote me an email saying how much she liked the quote.

What are your earliest memories of health?

I was so fortunate to have grown up in the setting that I did. We were outdoors, and I saw my mother gardening. I could go out in the garden in the summer and just pick a ripe tomato and eat it; it was like eating sunshine.

My dad built our house on the two acres of my grandfather’s farm that he had given us. We grew up with him next to us and my aunt across the way. We had a cow — one time we had a calf — and my dad bought 200 baby chickens every year and my mom dressed and sold the chickens. She made buttermilk, and I helped churn the butter. I saw my grandfather plowing the field with his mule; I never saw a tractor on his property. And the funny thing is, he grew eggplants and told us that they were mule eggs. I think I was half grown before I knew that eggplants were not really mule eggs.

Until I was 12, we lived on fresh vegetables; my mom canned and kept the vegetables through the winter. They were married during the Depression, and we were born just after. There were times when my dad struggled for work, but being on the farm helped us have good food. Sometimes we didn’t own a car; my dad rode a bike into Richmond to work. I know what it is to not have everything you want, but to appreciate what you do have.

What health or life practices did your parents pass down to you?

Well, something that’s being talked about now is eating seasonally. We ate seasonally because we had to. I learned that.

After I got married and went to my first farmers’ market, [it took] me back to my childhood. And now it’s very hard for me to go to a supermarket and buy produce because it never looks as fresh.

I was diagnosed with Celiac in my 60s, which is something you are born with. I think that a reason I was able to go through so much of my life without symptoms was because of the good nutrition that I had as a child.

What was it like growing up on a farm?

There were advantages and disadvantages. We lived out on the edge of the city of Richmond, so the streetcar line came out to the end of the city limits. It was probably a couple of miles to my home on the farm, and I had to walk that every day to go into town to school. It was hard, but I didn’t realize it then.

I loved school. I had three little brothers that I took care of, so I was busy; my dad made three little desks for my brothers, so I had to pretend play school all the time to keep them entertained. They would stop me and get in the desk to play gorilla or bear, whatever they could do to stop me from being serious and trying to teach them.

When we moved to North Carolina, we went to a small town, and that was totally different because then we could walk to our friends’ houses and to school. I was 12, which was a nice transition. I got to experience both.

How did growing up on a farm impact your relationship to health and food?

It helped me appreciate having fresh vegetables. I’ve always liked vegetables, and can’t think of any vegetable that I don’t like. I would go in the garden and pick peas and green beans and things like that. I knew where they came from and I knew what it took to grow them. My mom loved having her hands in the dirt, she loved having the garden, and we all had to help her. She had these really good watermelons and I never ate watermelon in the house. We always had it in the yard, and we could spit seeds at each other. They were just so good.

Do you think it’s important to know where your food is coming from?

I do. So many kids grow up thinking it comes in a package or out of the store. They don’t even know about the cow giving them milk.

I directed a nursery school, and we used to take the kids every year to a dairy farm so they could see the process. The lady of the farm went through the whole stages of milking the cows; she had a plastic cow with udders and showed how you put the machines on the cow. And at the end, a little boy raised his hand and asked, “How does the milk get out of the cow?” After she spent an hour telling him... I guess it’s a hard concept.

How would you describe your relationship to religion/spirituality?

It’s very much a part of my everyday life. I think we need to try and see each person as God’s child, no matter what we know about them. Whether they are religious or not, they are God’s creation and have dreams, hopes, and faults just like we do. We should try and see the best in them.

In the [rug hooking] retreats that I go to, there are so many different kinds of women. There are 15 women that come, and some are very annoying, they really are. I have to ask God to help me deal with them. We have to accept all kinds of people.

What is your strategy for dealing with annoying people?

I just try to see the best in them, remind myself that they are going through struggles and hardships, and, for some reason that I can’t understand, it makes them feel powerful to complain or to talk a lot. It’s a lesson in self-discipline, I have to say.

I think it’s hard to reconcile the evil that’s in our world. I can’t imagine how you, as young people, make it through. Every action you take is important. You might think that one person doesn’t make a difference, but every little bit helps.

What brings you fulfillment in life?

My creativity, and of course, all of my children and grandchildren. I enjoy working with my little class of rug hookers. I’m not even that focused on what I’m doing; I just love seeing what they’re doing and what they have learned. They’ve grown so much in the two years we’ve been having class. I’ve realized that in teaching, you get fulfillment in seeing the person develop. I’ve been rug hooking for fifty years now, and I get to pass on my knowledge to someone else and see their growth and enjoyment.

What advice would you give to someone my age?

Be true to yourself, follow your dreams, and be practical, too. It’s a combination, you can’t just live in La La Land.

I think that in my day it was easier. I was fortunate because when I got out of school, we all had a job placement, and I had several churches to choose from. When I got to my first church in Georgia, they had arranged a room for me to stay in at a lady’s house for $35/month. Housing wasn’t so expensive then. Of course, my salary wasn’t very high either.

Be open to possibilities in the world around you. Keep your principles and don’t compromise. Take advice from your elders, your parents…

The practice of gratitude is important. Not believing everything on social media; I think it is the bugaboo of your generation. So much of your culture is so materialistic, emphasizing looks and clothes, though I do think beauty is a gift and something to be cherished. There is so much to be appreciated, in nature and all that’s around you.

Note: This conversation has been edited for clarity.

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More from the archive:

My mum’s name is Sheila. She lives on a farm in Scotland and runs a pop up cafe called Whoopie Bakes! twice a week in a greenhouse. She’s so cool and the most prolific baker you’ve never met. Whenever I’m in town I get to help her with the cafe, washing dishes, taking orders, reheating quiches and slicing cakes. I get to chat to her regulars (who always know all about my life) and watch her light up as people experience the euphoria of a perfect cake, baked with plenty of love and the freshest seasonal ingredients.

I am really inspired by my mum. She makes everyone feel not only welcomed but celebrated. She dreams in recipes. She’s taken care of my autistic and nonverbal little brother, Ro, his entire life. She picked up and moved to a different country when she was nearly 60, because she didn’t want to settle for a life that wasn’t serving them. She knows when to leap and how to Land.

In the last moments of summer, while driving down country roads, staring at the big Scottish Sky, and working alongside her at the cafe, I talked to my mum all day.

—Maya Rajan

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How old were you when you moved to New York?

24.

And then when did you leave the U.S.?

57. It’s not where I was born, but it’s the place I’ve lived most of my life.

So far.

I’ll have to live for 30-plus years to make this place longer. Please don’t wish that on me. [She looks out the window] The cows are sitting down. That means it’s going to rain.

What made you finally pull the band-aid on leaving the US?

I’ve always loved Scotland, I always wanted a second home in Scotland because Thomas and I had talked about that, like spending summers here or something like that, but I didn’t really think it would be the final move. We wanted somewhere quiet, somewhere peaceful for Ro, a place that maybe would give him a choice in a lifestyle later down the road. Maybe it’d be a farm life, you know?

[She looks out the window] The cows are sitting down. That means it’s going to rain.

What advice would you give to other women who feel stuck in a place or relationship or job?

It’s never too late. It’s sometimes doing that instinctive thing, that something in your gut that tells you things are not right. Listen to your gut. And it may seem like a really shocking, stupid thing to do, but it’s a real fine line between bravery and stupidity. It just depends on the outcome.

Sometimes you just do something hoping that it will go right. And the bottom line is, if you do make that jump, whether it’s career, whether it’s life, marriage, divorce, whatever, if you do that, literally hold your nose and jump, for the most part, it works out. Things have a way of falling into place, whether you think they will or not. I’ve found that, in this life, I’ve just crossed my fingers and jumped. And sometimes it’s worked out great, sometimes it hasn’t. But you kind of do fall on your feet. That’s just the simple truth — sometimes you just have to do it. I think if I hadn’t pushed for this, I would have regretted it. Time would have gone by, and the more time goes by, [the] harder it becomes to do. So it’s always better now than tomorrow.

Things have a way of falling into place, whether you think they will or not.

When did you first start taking baking more seriously?

Baking was something I needed to do while I was home with Ro and freshly divorced, not really knowing what to do with myself. What was my place? What was I good at? I knew nothing because your father told me what I was not good at. I knew that part really well, but I didn’t know what I was actually good at. And you guys seem to really enjoy it when I baked for you after school. And I guess that’s what I told myself, “maybe you’re good at baking.”

What did it feel like to find out what you were good at?

Baking gave me something to be proud of, but beyond that, it took my mind off the things I wanted to not think about. It took my mind off of fear. It took my mind off of anxiety. It took my mind off of sheer unhappiness during a time where I was really unhappy. And I think that’s why I threw so much into it. I threw a lot of everything I was feeling into baking — everything but the negativity; there was no negativity in that. I would say baking to me was hope. Like, “maybe I can do this right.” It was a hope that someone would appreciate it.

I mean, now, Ro is a constant source of anxiety for me. What comes for him after my time? He’s 20 now but he’s going to be 45 soon. He’s going to be 53. Where is he going to be in his life? All of that is a huge worry to me. And I do find, once I turn the ovens on, I can kind of turn off for a little while.

Ovens on, mind off.

Ovens on, mind off. Turn on, turn off. And then you’re just kind of in the moment doing whatever. In my secret hopes and dreams, I would like this to get bigger. I would like to have a space that has Ro’s name on it. I have a name. It’s either “Lavender and Ro” or “Ro and Rose,” two of my favorite flavors, lavender and rose. But I want Ro’s name on a sign somewhere. It’s scary, but I want it.

More Mom Gossip

Today, we have a conversation between Jacqueline Morassutti and her mother, Alessandra. Jacqueline is a writer and regenerative farmer living on Vancouver Island. She was a guest on the newsletter last November.

Below, Alessandra shares her experiences studying homeopathy with George Vithoulkas, how motherhood became her gateway into alternative health, and the unexpected freedom that comes from being headstrong.

I’ll let Jacqueline take it from here…

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Mom Gossip: Alessandra by Jacqueline

This interview is the result of a series of phone calls, voice memos for clarification, and a winding tour of family history. Growing up, I’d heard stories about my mum’s childhood between Naples and Ischia, her unruly adolescence in Montréal, and her entrance into motherhood in Toronto. She made it clear that there were no absolutes around health and wellness when she was young. There were cultural instincts that you were either aligned with or not. That was the extent of her concept of wellbeing.

When we were talking about doing this, you were quick to say that you didn’t set out to pursue any alternative health or wellbeing practices; you were just starting a family.

I was so green to motherhood, but I had a good instinct, and I think it was because of my upbringing — to keep it as natural as possible. I couldn’t give you the Amalfi Coast, but I could give you Waldorf. That just felt so right to me, but it made no sense to anyone else. I think there was this sense of independence: right or wrong, I was going to do it my way. I never felt the pressures of, you’re not going to belong, they’re going to call you names — that’s okay, I’ve been called “crazy” all my life. I’m not afraid of that, and that’s a gift of being an immigrant. I was able to do my own thing without being concerned about the consequences.

In that way, I’ve always had a hard-headedness. There’s a freedom in that that’s quite lovely.

Becoming a mother opened this door for me and it really allowed a lot of knowledge and new information to come in that put me ahead of the times. It really was a gift. It opened me up to all alternative medicine — almost to a fault, because I’ll try everything just to see what else is out there.

What did health and wellbeing look like during your earlier years?

I’m going to start with a little story that I’ve shared with a couple of people. So, we’re talking 30+ years ago, I never would have said this at the time, but I think we were at a sort of Golden Age of the planet, of wellbeing. If you had a little bit of means you were able to buy decent food. Also, because I grew up with an Italian culture of food, we tended to eat fresh things. We just didn’t eat packaged things. There wasn’t anything that I had to relearn or do, you know.

What did that look like on a day-to-day basis?

Well, if I was going to get a nice steak from the butcher, I would and I would get some vegetables to go with it. It wasn’t fancy, but it was good food, which was part of my culture. We were always going to buy good food. It wasn’t like we had to watch for “organic” and all this, no, that came after for me. I think when I was pregnant that started, because I was out in Vancouver, and they had more organics. Being pregnant did make me more aware, but it was also the environment, because when I came back to Toronto organic food was harder to find. At the time there was only The Big Carrot. Then, even though organic food was priced a little bit higher, it was part of the Italian culture. You’re just not going to buy shitty food. You’re going to buy top food, but you’re going to have less of it. That’s the culture.

It’s funny, I’ve never heard it put that succinctly but you’re right. That reminds me that even when I was working for various Italian restaurants in Toronto there was also a strong emphasis on having the Materia Prima, the best raw materials.

Exactly. You’re not going to cheap[en] the meat. You’re going to get good quality but you’re going to get smaller portions. That’s the way it is.

Something else I remember is that when we were little, if we had a cold, my dad would warm up the cognac, give it to us to drink then tell us to go straight bed where we’d just sweat it out. Do you know those espresso machines, where they would steam the milk? I remember once when we were in Ischia, and I got quite sick, this guy steamed the cognac in the machine. I drank it as it was cooling. That night, I barely made it to my bed. I was out. I woke up the next morning. I had been drenched, sweating all night, and in the morning, it was all gone.

Another experience I’ll never forget, I came home, and my wisdom teeth were causing me a lot of pain. My dad gave me two shots, probably four ounces of cognac, didn’t bother to warm it up, told me to drink it straight — and it’s not nice to drink when you’re fourteen, fifteen, okay? — and then he goes: “go to bed.” That was the pain killer, brandy.

Some elements of your story are very relatable, and others elements might inspire courage in people.

You know, I never really thought of it as courage. I really think that being immigrants, where we saw struggles in the home and we saw father who had some difficulties, and that we overcame that — we got ourselves degrees and we were able to get out of the house… those successes empower you, even though they were small.

Today is a different world. It felt more simple, more organic, and because we were immigrants without being held by too many rules and regulations of families; we were a little more free with how we could move. I wasn’t going to get my uncle or my aunt calling me because I’m now defaming the family. I got a little bit from dad, but I was really free. It was lonely not to have the big family entourage, but it really allowed for a lot of freedom to really be the rudder for your life. You [could] imagine it in your own way without any influences.

My understanding is that there are a few different schools of homeopathy, and you studied from a couple of them. Do you remember what drew you to one versus another?

The main teacher was George Vithoulkas in Greece. He has a very classical approach: one person has one remedy at a time. We learned about taking full cases, whereas other schools of homeopathy focus on whichever symptom is present. Vithoulkas’s approach is perfect for laying the foundation, understanding the key essences of the remedies and how they would match a person’s constitution. He was trying to teach the big picture about how the body heals; if you give the body the right stimulus, it can take you back to health. That was his big teaching, along with the keynotes of the remedies. You don’t give too much, then you wait, and the body will give you its response.

He was really trying to stay very pure to the teachings of Samuel Hahnemann, the founder of homeopathy — which is a beautiful thing but not always applicable in clinical settings. Vithoulkas’s style can take a long time, and it can be difficult to figure out. If you have a client on the phone and their child is coughing its guts out and you don’t have time to take their full case, it gets hard to find the right remedy.

So, then I sought out more clinical approaches to homeopathy. Friends of mine were working with Dr. Jose Issac in Thiruvananthapuram, India. Dr. Jose was also classical, but more for the hospital setting — you know, when you have a patient coming in and they can’t talk, how do you assess them?

In the hospital setting, the doctors are trained to find the remedy for the acute condition by visual cues or by one or two symptoms.

Can you give me an example of what sort of visual cues you would use?

For example, if someone comes in with water or food poisoning, the first remedy you think of is Arsencium 30ch, or if a child that comes in with asthma and is always hot you would give Arsenicum Iodatum 30ch, or someone has a high fever and flushed face you would give Belladonna 30ch. So, with very little information you can give something and offer a person a lot of relief, which is amazing. You can repeat more often if a patient is in an acute phase of the condition, because they need more support and they tend to burn through the remedy quickly.

I remember hearing you and other students referring to “the levels of health” while discussing various case studies. Where did that concept fit into these different schools?

Right, so according to George, there are four levels of health.

Level One would be somebody who is very healthy. When they get an acute symptom, they get a very high fever. They’re in and out of the acute phase with 24-48 hours.

In Level Two, you’re starting to see more acute symptoms more often. You’ll see more fevers, colds, stomachs, earaches happening on a regular basis — maybe three, four, five times a year — whereas somebody in the first level of health would get that once every two years, and it’s progressive, you know. You don’t jump from Level One to Level Two, but if you’re getting colds every 2-3 months, then you’re getting close to leaving the second level of health.

Level One and Two are good health, Level Three and Four are on the other side. When you stop getting high fevers or issues that are on the skin, you’re getting into chronic conditions because the inflammation is now not out in the open for the body to deal with. Now the inflammation is under the surface because you’ve stopped the first level of defense that the body can show you and you’re going to deal with more chronic conditions. I don’t want to butcher this, but that was revolutionary. We were all sitting in class when George told us this and looking at each other like, Do you get high fevers? I don’t get high fevers anymore. In a class of 150 students, we realized that half of us were not getting high fevers anymore. It turned everything we knew about health upside down. I think now there’s more of an acceptance, in some circles, to allow fevers to run, but at the time, 20-30 years ago, it was revolutionary.

What he observed was that the first two levels are in the best health, which would help you when it came to prescriptions because you would only need one or two remedies, and they would be totally fine. Even if they were in a degenerative condition, you could give them one remedy and they would be cured because the response of the body was so strong that it was able to get rid of whatever it was that was ailing them with a lot more power, a lot more vitality. Once you’re in the Level Three you’re going to need more remedies, you’re going to need more repetition and you’re going to take longer to get through it, you’re going to have to change more things in your lifestyle.

George came to this understanding because he had many doctors in Athens that were following his prescription methods, and he observed through his team that helped people go from disease states back to health. His observations gave him insights into how people heal, which happens when you’re treating so many people. He started to realize that there was an intelligence in the body that as the body starts to heal, it goes through certain stages. That’s how he ended up distilling this concept of the Levels of Health.

Homeopathy was really a gift, to have a medicine that really can relieve you of discomfort right away (if it’s the right remedy). There’s nothing else like it. The doors started to open, and I saw that there were other ways to heal. Which was more aligned with what I believed in, and it continued to open doors. I think it’s also what brought me to explore beyond everyday life and look for a more esoteric meaning of life. It goes together… It’s magic in a kind of way, but it’s not, so then you’re curious, what’s the mechanism, what’s going, what are we? Because people who just follow the medicine and suppress everything don’t realize what’s happening in their body. You take a little pill that’s not supposed to be anything, its placebo, and yet to feel like a million bucks. It changes you. ❦

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Further explorations:

• #29: Jacqueline Morassutti

• Jacqueline’s regenerative farm, Testbed

• Alec Zeck’s interview with homeopath Melissa Kupsch (RMDY Academy)

• The Science of Homeopathy by George Vithoulkas

It seems Mother has always been ahead of the curve. Unpasteurized milk, landrace fruit, soy's impact on hormones, I heard it all from her over a decade before being subsumed into the fad diet industrial complex. Her influence could be seen in my brother, who l distinctly remember in the mid-aughts baking traditional southern biscuits with pork fat he rendered himself.

I've cobbled together weeks of voice notes into this concise and loving interrogation of her health journey. It's been very transformative to learn more about her health journey, especially prior to motherhood and since l've left home in Massachusetts.

— Liv Webster

You had health issues as a child, how did that affect your lifestyle at the time?

I was a sickly kid with really bad asthma and I couldn’t run around to play a lot. On the positive side, being in and out of the hospital so often meant I got a lot of 1-on-1 time with my mom. She would come in to visit me for a half-hour but it was a half-hour I had all to myself. With seven other siblings that was a big deal. I felt really guilty about the attention from all the people taking care of me.

What’s helped you heal from those experiences?

It took a long time to feel comfortable and confident in my body and in my abilities. [A decade of] karate played a big part in that. I’m still doing the work to learn and grow and make better habits. Like, I know I’ll have to get over the guilt of people helping me before I get really old. Self care can mean letting other people take care of you.

I forgot we did karate together as a family for so long. You became very active.

In my 30s and 40s, my health was in great shape while practicing and working at the karate dojo. I was also running road races and finishing triathlons, but the whole time I would remind myself that it's temporary, and one day I’m not going to be able to do this. Now in my 50’s I’m more concerned with what makes my body feel good, and how to maintain my mobility. I’m interested in medicinal plants now because I don’t want as many pharmaceutical drugs in me. I don’t cut them out completely though, it's important to be responsible to not make it harder to take care of me later on.

Was traditional medicine a part of your upbringing at all?

One memory I have from my childhood is making perfume from plants in Mrs. Craven’s garden, which felt like magic. I’m gotten to a similar place now, I’m just more sophisticated and educated about it. Medicinal plants weren’t really a part of my childhood, though I think they should have been. My dad’s side of the family is from Appalachia and I remember my aunt in Pennsylvania had an apothecary with jars of herbs she would make infusions with. I think if I grew up closer to her I would’ve been more exposed to it.

Research feels like finding missing parts of my family’s story. I’m repairing parts of myself spiritually as well as physically. When I first started, I felt really disconnected from what I could have known about natural medicine as an ancestral practice. Herbs as a spiritual, medicinal, and culinary practice — that’s also part of the Celtic Druid tradition, my mother’s Irish side, [and] something I enjoy researching.

I remember you told me about a 13 month calendar, was that a Druid tradition as well?

There are many oral stories of the Druid lunar calendar composed of 13 months, each named after a different tree. I’ve tried to conduct research on it and it hasn’t been very conclusive. It was a phenomenon across Native cultures in the Americas, though.

I think a 13 month calendar would be a more natural rhythm to follow throughout the year. Like, for most of my adult life, the start of my [menstrual] cycle occurred at a new moon. I tried to create my own 13 month calendar, but it got very confusing and I was unable to utilize it in a productive way. I hope to revisit the idea at Samhain this year.

Where do you get your herbs typically?

I collected Yarrow myself today, just enough for some tincture. It helps with migraines and body aches. Also, I saw Mullein plants while driving back from New Hampshire on Saturday but none of them were mature enough to uproot and process for tea, elixir, or salve. I use Mullein to help my asthma, for some joint pain and other nerve and skin ailments. My friend used to have an apothecary and she would give me things as I needed them. Since she’s moved to Peru I have mostly been doing my own research and collecting things myself, she still helps though.

I know you like hiking. What do you look for in a hike? Do you have favorite hikes?

When I am contemplative I prefer to be alone. I like to walk, think, sit and journal. Memories of a place and those who I have shared it with makes a hike sweeter and sometimes a little sad. For example, I used to help facilitate a place-based learning program (developed by Angela Gibbons) in the wilderness around Goddard College called Earthwalk. Local children and the children of students could opt into a once-a-week walk through the woods, rain or shine. I paired elders within the native community with the children to share stories of the Abenaki people who lived on the campus long before Goddard.

Nowadays, I often go to a spot in Andover (Massachusetts) called the Goldsmith Woodlands, it is near Foster’s Pond. There is also a place in Gloucester (Massachusetts) called Dog Town and I also like the Sheepfold in the Fells (Massachusetts). I went to Franconia Notch (New Hampshire) this weekend.

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My mom and I sat down one morning over coffee for what turned out to be a conversation spanning multiple hours, in reflection of the threads that weave ancestry, tradition, and interpersonal connections to experiences of the self and the divine. She was the youngest of seven siblings, born and raised in San Francisco, California to a Sicilian-American family that consisted of chefs, artists, storytellers and beyond. She serves as an endless inspiration for living life with an adventurous spirit, embodying gratitude, and how to truly care for those around you. Her sense of humor is unparalleled and it often feels like we have a language of our own that we communicate in. What has been shared here are just a few jewels to chronologue a life that continues to unfold with so much joy for the simplicity of just being alive.

—Olivia Burr

What are the pillars of health and wellbeing for you, and how do they manifest in your life?

For me, movement is medicine, from the time I was young until now. Knowing your body and how to listen to your body is very important. I trust that my body knows what it needs and desires, and I’ll tune into that each day. Growing up, I would wake up early and ride my bike to the Golden Gate Bridge to sit by the water, with this desire to get outside first thing in the morning. I was always alone, but it was my thing. Maybe it was out of loneliness, because I was the youngest [most of her siblings had left home by then] and it felt like the space where I could talk to myself. It still is — when I run or exercise — it’s where I can go completely inward and recenter. I can problem solve, feel gratitude, and access creativity through my movement practice. It’s where I think, feel, and listen.

The other pillar has always been food, which I had a mixed relationship with growing up, because it really brought my family together, but I also had an eating disorder. So, I had a complex relationship with food that just sort of sorted itself out as I grew older. It never felt like [exercise] was a part of that, but instead that it served as a tool where I was able to learn how to truly connect with my body and love it. Movement was always full of positive connotations. I was able to listen to how I needed to nourish myself and care for my body in order to do all the things that bring me happiness in this life. Surrounding myself with women who had healthy relationships with food and their bodies was also incredibly healing for me. I didn’t really have a model of what true balance could look like until my young adulthood through these relationships.

What was it like growing up in a family of chefs and with the restaurant?

I grew up eating really amazing food, lots of fruits and vegetables, fish, meat, pastas. Fresh, every single day. My dad would bring back everything fresh from the restaurant. I love knowing exactly where my food comes from and cooking for others was always just a given. It’s such a special way to nurture and I love creating that environment for my loved ones.

Having a restaurant can be hard on families in terms of ownership, but working there as a kid, the responsibility they gave me, I absolutely loved it. I loved waking up super early and taking the bus down to the Wharf. It would be completely empty and quiet at maybe 6:45 or 7:00am. I did all the cold prep, which was cracking crabs and oysters, plating desserts, and preparing the salads. I knew everybody and the employees were all like family. Old Sam was teaching me how to crack crabs and not saw my fingers off, it was just so great. I started working there at 8 counting the cash with my aunt Angie, then did cashiering, and then went to do the cold prep in the pantry when I was 13. After that, I was up in the front, hostessing. All of my siblings were still working there… Tony was 14 years older, so he may have been gone by then, but it was so fun. Michael was cooking on the line as a teenager, and then went to culinary school and came back when he was 23 or so, at the end of my time there. I learned a lot about responsibility and it was just so awesome.

Are there any iconic recipes from that era that you still make?

My brother Michael does, but me, not so much, I alter everything and make it my own. Maybe some of the seafood…cioppino, crab…that salad is the salad we ate every night, that you and your brother would call bean salad — with ceci. We literally ate that every single night with sourdough, alongside whatever else there was. And it had to have avocado in it. It’s hard to eat a salad that doesn't have avocado. If bean salad make it in this… [laughs]

How about any kitchen rituals?

I clean as I go. I love having a clean workspace, and wash my knives immediately and dry them. I started hiding my steak knives so people wouldn’t cut things with them when they come over, like a pineapple or sourdough. It’s my biggest pet peeve [laughing]. Why would you cut a pineapple with a steak knife?

What inspires you the most lately in regards to cooking?

I dreamt of having a garden growing up, how amazing it would be to just walk outside and eat a peach off of a tree, to pick my own fruit. I never thought that I would be able to grow anything…maybe because of growing up in the city. To now be able to walk outside to the garden is amazing and has challenged me as a chef, as well — to eat seasonally and get creative with what I am making. It is just so joyful. You know exactly how it was grown and that no pesticides or anything else has touched your food. It was all grown with love. And to be able to give friends boxes of herbs and vegetables, is just pure joy.

And the olive oil! Oh my goodness, I love that olive oil so much. From picking and sorting through the first bins on the ground, picking out any stray leaves and sticks, to now getting to write people handwritten notes. Being so hands-on in the process from start to finish combines everything that I love — being outside, cooking, and sharing with others — all rolled into a small business that I actually enjoy. I just love seeing how much happiness it brings to those who try it.

How has your relationship to spirituality evolved over your lifetime?

Spirituality is something that is ever evolving to me. I was raised Catholic, and I absolutely loved the rituals of being a Catholic when I was growing up. I used to do Mass, we had a little library in our home, and I would squish down some Wonder Bread [as communion], and I would literally do Mass. I felt really connected to the essence of the stories as a child, in a very pure way — the sacrifice, altruism and consciousness of it all. Confession never sat right for me, though. It never made sense to me that I would need to tell another human being my sins and go through them to reach God.

When I got older, the corruption surrounding the church was revealed to me and it just didn’t resonate as much. My spirituality evolved into a larger quest. I started to meditate around 20 when my sister Laureen first took me to transcendental meditation, and then Sidha yoga. These were all very positive experiences because they taught me to bow to the God within, and to see the God that lives within everybody. Learning to go inwards was a turning point for me and touched on the experiences of my childhood that I didn't fully understand back then, experiences of something larger than myself. It feels like it was yesterday and I can picture it so clearly, looking onto the water under the bridge, and connecting to something greater. The quietness of hearing nothing and everything at the same time.

I feel too much of a connection to what is beyond here for there to be nothing — the Grand Web of Life, for sure. I feel that when I am gone you will still be able to hear and feel me. It’s more about how tuned in we are, so, of course there is so much more to sense in this existence than we know of.

What philosophies on life have you retained from your mother?

A sense of humor was vital to her. No matter what is happening, she always taught me to not take life too seriously. What can you learn from your experiences? Is there something light in it? Can you find the humor in a situation that is challenging you? It’s important to stay in the present and come back to the knowing that this very moment won’t be forever. And you never know what is right around the corner. The times I felt the bluest in life, I couldn’t see anything but the blue. But then there was joy. There always is.

Where do you find a deep sense of fulfillment?

So much of who I am in this world is about my interpersonal relationships. I love being around those closest to me because our connections feel so deep and soulful. That’s how I want to be remembered in this life — not by material successes, but by how others felt around me. The way our society measures accomplishment by our work or career just never really resonated with me, personally. I always felt the most fulfillment based upon how I can support and care for those around me. I really started to feel a deep responsibility in caring for my family when my mom got sick, and subsequently as my siblings have gotten older as well. It was such an honor to take care of both my parents as they aged. Escorting them on their way out when they passed, staying with their bodies. It’s such an honor to be with the soul as it transitions.

I see connections with others as soul-to-soul — my soul interacting with your soul — regardless of whatever the outward-facing relationship may be. It brings in the purity of respect and love to our interactions, seeing us as souls who are in one another’s care for brief moments in time, void of any power dynamic. I see some people who interact with their children as if they are an extension of themselves. Like the success of their children is what provides their own sense of worth and validation. That’s not what I believe. I love connecting with my children in who they are and how they are constantly evolving. Having a genuine friendship with my daughter is one of my favorite things that those closest to me can really see the value and joy it brings to my life.

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TCM Mom Gossip: Collapsible foot baths, grieving, and the benefits of soy milk

“My mother Zhuo and I are very close, especially since I’ve been in my twenties, and I was so happy to have this opportunity to talk to her about her wisdom on health and living well. Zhuo is a professor of East Asian linguistics. She is incredibly active and energetic. With my dad, she works in her beautiful garden daily and forages for mushrooms in Oregon’s forests. She loves to run and use her infrared sauna from Costco. She also travels a lot to attend conferences and see her relatives in China. I was surprised and moved by how this initially structured conversation revealed, and how connected I felt to her during it.

Growing up in Germany and then in the US with a Chinese mother, we often clashed on her dictates, which I wrote off as superstitions. I hated being told not to drink cold drinks or sit on cold surfaces. I’ve since learned that she is usually entirely correct. Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), which she subscribes to, is a complex holistic system that is thousands of years old and focuses primarily on balance within the body. We talked about how to eat well, how to live a balanced life, and what ‘ancestor worship’ really means.”

— Tabia Schmidt

For me, one of the most important parts of health is the way that I eat. You’ve taught me a lot about that, and you’re coming from a Chinese philosophy of eating. Can you tell me about how you think about health and food?

You know, I eat pretty simple foods, right? I eat a lot of vegetables. I need a green dish for every meal. It could be a separate dish or it could be mixed with tofu or meat. I use natural ingredients. I don’t buy processed foods. Of course, now I’m growing my own green onions and that kind of thing so I can just pick fresh ingredients in the garden. And especially in summer I can just have a lot of fresh produce.

You have so many good things in the summer. I love your lettuce and cucumbers.

Yes! I like a balance of everything. I like warming foods when it’s a little cold. When summer turns into fall, you start eating more warming foods — lamb, hot pot, that kind of thing — to get your body adjusted to the cold season. And I like soup. Broth, chicken broth, or vegetable or beef broth; I think those are very nourishing. And it can be very flexible, you can toss in vegetables, and also get minerals from adding seaweed and beans. But I’m pretty open to a lot of ingredients. I try to eat less carbs; I do have rice or noodles, but I just don’t like if a dish is only pasta, all carbs. Once in a while I like a pizza or that kind of thing. And now I’m eating less red meat; once a week, maybe a steak. I eat two boiled eggs every day.

What is a typical day of food like for you? What did you eat today?

Two boiled eggs, two slices of the rye bread your dad made with honey and black sesame paste on it. It gives me energy. I had banana and yogurt. And for dinner I usually make rice and a stir fry. So for dinner maybe I’m thinking a kung pao chicken.

Dad will be so happy, he loves that.

Or mapo tofu, that’s his favorite. But yeah, I just cook from scratch. And I like to go with the seasons. In winter I eat more kale or collard greens. I also like yam. Sometimes a meal can just be baked yam with some tofu or whatever.

Yam is a great meal.

Right? With butter. Also it used to be natural for me to have a beer, but now I rarely drink alcohol. Sometimes just a few sips a week, like if dad is drinking a beer I’ll have a few sips, but I won’t have a bottle like I used to. It feels good, my face is less puffy. There’s research that shows that no amount of alcohol is actually healthy. But people enjoy it on social occasions, everything in moderation. So that’s a change that I like.

You travel a lot for work as a professor. Going to conferences, giving talks, etc. What do you do to feel good while you travel?

I actually got this collapsible bowl that I put in my suitcase. Did I tell you about it? I’ll show you. And I also use epsom salt. It’s very good, very cheap. So when I travel, this collapsible basin is perfect. Because I realized that a hot foot soak really helps me fall asleep, which I sometimes have trouble with when I’m on the go or sleep at irregular times. So that is a deliberate wellness intervention. I also carry a resistance band in my suitcase to exercise.

How do you manage stress in your daily life?

Now I’m at a point where I’m not really stressed about things. I can separate myself. I try to be light hearted. And sometimes things will sort themselves out without me worrying about it. If people in the department are emailing back and forth, I don’t have to participate immediately. I guess I’m more relaxed now, which is so helpful, and I don’t feel anxious. Take walks, think things through, and talk to people.

Yeah.

Yesterday, I was listening to NPR, and they were talking about this thing called “wind phone.” A phone in the wind. It’s a public phone that you put somewhere outside. But it’s not connected to anything. It’s for people who need to talk to their loved ones who passed away, but they still have things to say. And they just go out there and hold the phone and talk to them. It’s like make-believe. It’s supposed to be very helpful with grief. You know, sometimes I talk to my dad. And I find it very helpful. If there’s a big thing that I worry about, I’ll talk to my dad and seek his help.

And do you feel like you can hear what he would say in that situation?

I think so. Sometimes I’ll just give him some flowers and talk. I think a wind phone could be even more helpful. Right now, I have his photograph, so I talk to his photograph as if it’s the real person. You have to have a venue for your emotions, whether it’s a friend, or family, or like I talk to my dad. A lot of the times when I talk to my dad, I’m seeking his help. Like, “Ohh, I can’t get ahold of Kendra [her youngest daughter, my sister], maybe she got abducted! Please help me, and make sure she is ok!”

And you feel better.

I mean, I understand that it may not help, but it helps me a lot emotionally. In a situation like that, I brought him a lot of lilac flowers. So I first thank my dad, for protecting us all this time, for the time that things have been great, and then I tell him my concerns. That’s something we do in China. Every time we go back home, my sister and I drive to the graveyard to see the tombstone and sweep it, and to bring food, and then talk to our ancestors. My grandparents, my father, my uncle, they’re all in the same graveyard. We first will report all the important events. Like, I’ll say, “Tabia and Kendra are doing great, thank you so much for the blessing and protection.” And we hope they will continue to bless the family.

What kind of food do you bring?

The food you bring for an offering has to be in odd numbers, like three apples, three peaches, and maybe five cookies that my dad especially likes. Five dumplings, some Chinese liquor. And we’ll burn some incense and chrysanthemum flowers to spread the petals over the tombstone. This kind of ritual is of course designed more for the living. So there’s an almost religious aspect to it.

Do you think there are enough rituals in American culture to connect us with our dead?

I don’t think so. It’s a different culture. The Chinese, we don’t have organized religion, or my family doesn’t. But there is this so-called “ancestor worship” (at least in Western cultural anthropology, it’s described as “ancestor worship”). But “worship” isn’t accurate to me, it’s more about emotional connection. It’s a continuation of the relationship. And, of course, my sister always imagines this other world in which my father and our grandparents are living. So there’s this imagination of the other world, where your grandparents are all living, so you can talk to them collectively. You saw Mulan, right?

Yes.

It’s an artistic representation of this ancestral relationship. It’s exaggerated, but the idea is correct. You talk to your ancestors about the things happening in this world, and you hope they have the power to help you, to advise you. So I think that’s part of our emotional health, that connection. In this culture, people go to church. I understand that, I understand the emotional need. But for me, it’s just not as intimate as talking to your parents.

That’s the most foundational relationship!

Yes, this spiritual bond versus your actual bond. I choose my actual father. That bond is more real to me!

We were talking about aphorisms and metaphors the last time we spoke on the phone. Do you know any good aphorisms about health?

There’s this saying, 冬吃萝卜，夏吃姜 (Dōng chī luóbo, xià chī jiāng). It means, “winter eat radish, summer eat ginger.” The principle is such that in winter it’s cold out, and radish is cooling. You want to eat some radish, so that your body is in tune with nature, to reduce the disharmony. Otherwise you’ll be susceptible to illness. The Chinese also totally encourage ice water in the summer. Although it’s not about the actual temperature of the food, per se; ice water is bad in all seasons. Somehow it makes your body less sensitive to different functions. It’s numbing. And it’s believed in Chinese medicine that it destroys your spleen. The spleen is very sensitive, it must be protected, so you shouldn’t have things considered extreme, like very cold icy things. There’s a temperate, moderate ideal. Chinese people like eating congee.

You have a delicious congee you’ve made before. It’s called eight or ten treasures?

八宝粥 (Bābǎozhōu). The eight treasures are jujube, peanuts, azuki beans, black rice, sweet rice, goji berries, and some people put in lotus seed, and I think the last thing is another grain, like pearl barley. You put everything together and you cook it. But a lot of the ingredients need to be pre-soaked, like the beans.

Chinese medicine has this idea of dampness, it’s an abstract concept, but there’s certain symptoms, like moist hands or acne. So pearl barley and adzuki beans drive our dampness out so that our bodies are more energetic. Because dampness can make us feel sluggish.

Right now I’m making soy milk a lot. If you want a machine I can order you a machine. I make lots of soy milk.

I would love that. I love soy milk.

And you can use the leftover soybean pulp to make a kind of cornbread. I like it so much, I grew up eating a lot of it. My dad used to make it. In my childhood, it wasn’t desirable, because you eat it because you don’t have enough rice, so it was a less desirable food. But now I love it! There’s a lot of things that I had as a child that I now like a lot, like millet. Millet congee is very soothing, it’s very healthy. You can go to a Chinese store to get it, because the millet in american supermarkets is not the right one. It’s not fine enough. They're tiny, totally small, yellow. The American millet for some reason takes too long to cook. I just cook it with water. I have it for anything, but mostly breakfast.

I like millet congee with honey. I have all my congee with honey.

Soy milk with honey is good. I’m going to send you a small soy milk machine to your address. You can buy a big bag of organic soy beans on Amazon. Our country is a big soybean country. I bought a seven pound bag for not much money. It can last a long time. It’s good protein, it’s good for women. The natural estrogen in it gives you good skin.

Are you still sauna-ing?

I did last night!

More Mom Gossip

My mom is my best role model for living life meaningfully and simultaneously never taking it too seriously. Born and raised in Los Angeles, she’s never left Southern California. (Her favorite song is California Dreamin’.) I’ve never seen her bored. She has an epic collection of gothic romance novels and once mailed a stack of nearly pornographic literature to my friend who, according to her, was in need. She’s always delighting, always grateful, always searching for God and meaning. She’s enlightened but would never say it, never loses a game of Scrabble or Monopoly (even if it means playing dirty), and never loses faith in the goodness of the world and humanity, even when it seems few and far between.

—Zoë Madeleine Brown

What are some of your earliest associations with and memories of health?

I think I was always trying to reconcile all the different people in my very close family trying to message to me on what health or wellness was. Underlying everything was a fear of staving off scary things like illness and death. My dad (a Holocaust survivor) would equate abundant food with survival and health. My mom (a chronic dieter) loved that I enjoyed eating vegetables and proteins but modeled some maladaptive behavior for me, like drinking too many diet drinks to stay full or going on extreme diets. My grandparents and my dad were immigrants meeting more basic needs for survival. My education beyond that level was all self-directed.

From an early age, I loved my nature walks (first with my mom in the neighborhood and later by myself). Wherever I lived in LA, I was always charting my walking course to get closer to nature. I also saw that I could shift my moods and get away from the stress of my parents’ divorce by either going on a walk or escaping into one of my happy romance books.

What do you do when you wake up in the morning?

I love to stretch in bed and feel all the delicious feelings of unfurling in the body. After I wake, ideally I get up early and go down to make my coffee and sit in the sun seat in the kitchen and enjoy that part of the morning.

What do you do before you go to sleep?

Recently I have started a practice of doing legs up the wall (for about 30 minutes or sometimes more) while reading my latest romance novel. Double happiness endorphins. I love this!!

Sometimes I listen to a yoga nidra meditation but right now the above is my routine.

What is the best part of your day?

I am in a really happy part of life now and try to love all parts of my day. I have practices throughout the day and at night that I think I use subconsciously to enhance my happiness. I try to gravitate toward positive activities and people and reflect back positive love when I feel stress or sadness from myself or others.

I look for sensory joys in whatever I am doing. When walking, looking for the crunchy leaves to step upon or the wild rosemary to pick a sprig of and smell; when taking my vitamins, the pleasure of drinking the accompanying warm concoction of that time of day; when exercising, trying to luxuriate in the joy of it. As a mom, I am of course happiest when my kids call or text me with their latest happiness.

Tell me about the law school stir-fry. (My mom has a legendary — to me — and oft-referred to “law school stir-fry,” which is exactly what it sounds like: a meal she would make herself almost always the night before a big exam during law school. It was her comfort food, brain food, and ritualistic good luck charm.)

The famous law school stir fry was about two pieces of chicken breast that I would stir fry and that I would add an entire bag of frozen veggies to (I would vary type). At the end I would add a sauce. I would sometimes use a different protein source but always a good amount of protein and lots of different vegetables. This would be my power meal for studying. When I worked as a beginning attorney, I would drag my best friend Sue to a stir fry place in Century City at least 3 times a week for a similar power meal. And even earlier in my working life, I would go to a food truck outside City Hall where I would get a big plate of salad, cooked vegetables, beans, and chicken and mix it all together. [Daughter note: this genre of warm & cold salad involving several disparate parts with little regard for presentation or flavor harmony is still my mother’s favorite type of very elevated cuisine. A small plate wine bar hates to see her coming, and vice versa.]

My dad used to worry a lot about bad luck/the evil eye. I believe I have moved away from that and of using food or other practices to ward away bad luck/attract good luck. But I do believe that lots of things I do every day positively charge my food, my drink, my thoughts and my vibrational energy. I try to always silently bless and give thanks for all the delicious things I am so fortunate to eat and drink.

What are your favorite wellness and happiness secrets post-menopause?

I’ve loved bio-identical hormone replacement (both the topical cream and progesterone pill). I wish I had gone on that right away, and that I had known even more to help my cycle last even longer. So much more knowledge is now accessible!

I love jumping on my rebounder to good music while doing self lymphatic massage and tai chi. You know I love jumbling all my wellness techniques together, like my big warm & cold salad bowls. Every exercise that I do in this part of life I practice doing from a place of love and indulgence (loving the feeling of a long-held stretch, a push-up, a lifting of weights). I am not making myself do anything; I love feeling what my body can do and I try to cultivate that positive self loop. I also want to report that happiness pre- and post-menopause should include abundant sex (either with a loved partner who you trust implicitly or yourself). This is a primal life force for me and I am still highly sexed (but very happily monogamous).

I realize things that used to bring me joy when I was younger (like shopping for clothes) are fun but not really that absorbing. Same for long beauty rituals or ordeals. I am more drawn, like I was when I was a young child, to the call of nature and the stories of love and spiritual quests.

Tell me about your relationship with God, astral traveling and meditation, and your pendulum.

Ah, now for the good stuff. I think I have astral traveled only once (in kindergarten during nap time when I did not want to nap, I ascended above the mats to look down on my class… a feat that I have yet to recreate). I love guided meditations of all sorts and am loving yoga nidra. I think the more I meditate, jump on the trampoline, put my feet up the wall, the more I put myself into the flow state of moving through and enjoying my life. In meditation, I have had glimpses of what I think existence becomes once your physical life ceases and I think it is beautiful and filled with light and powerful love energy. Your soul merges with this light and dwells with this greater soul and/or splits off again and experiences a different life. In greatest times of flow, I feel God with me, enjoying that I am enjoying all that he created and continues to create. And teaching me to live in a state of love, gratitude, and awe.

What would you tell yourself at my age?

You know I love talking to all my little Debbies (I take them sometimes on my walks through the nature park). An army of them, one for each year of my life to show them how amazing it is that I am now in this more tranquil area now, with unlimited nature and beauty and life would (and always has) sorted itself out.

I would tell my younger, 26-year-old self to nourish and nurture herself more (more walks, more quiet time, more love, more sex, more figuring out what makes me function my best and grounds me, more deliciousness on every level). And less worrying about comparing herself to others, about what may happen in the future, about pushing herself to accomplish or do things.

What would you like to see or create more of in the world?

I hope that the world will create more opportunities for health, education, and prosperity in every country (hopefully new technology will make that possible and will lessen conflict everywhere and bring a more golden age for humanity). Some mystics predicted that this would be the age that this would occur. My prayer is that this is true and that this life and all our lives are always rich with love, gratitude, awe, and beauty.

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Welcome to Mom Gossip, a series celebrating the women who shape us. Today: a conversation with my mom, home stylist + curator Janet Joseph. This interview took place over the phone on December 13, 2024. For the sake of simplicity, we kept our focus on the kitchen.

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Hi! I’m so excited to talk with you. This has been a long time coming.

I’ve been listening to the Wiser Than Me podcast — she interviews older women, Ina Garten, Jane Fonda… and every time, after interviewing them, she calls her mom and they chat for a few minutes on-air. It’s really sweet.

How did you first get interested in cooking?

I remember having my first dinner party before I was married, and there were only four of us. I made a turkey scallopini dish with risotto, and after I made that and had a dinner party, I was like, “Oh, I can do this. It’s not that hard to entertain.” Once I got a few dinner parties under my belt, I had more confidence to continue.

But really, I was cooking to save money. We had a pretty strict food budget. We would put money in envelopes and budget it for food and other things we wanted to do.

And when you were born, I really wanted to make sure you were eating healthy. When you were really little, I would purée vegetables and fruit and freeze in portions for you. I wanted to find recipes that I could make and feed you… I think that played an important role in why you love vegetables and cook a lot yourself.

That sets the tone for everything.

I didn’t entertain much when you were young, but I started having people over with the grade school gang. I probably didn’t develop a real love for cooking until about 5 years ago.

What’s really interesting is I had energy work done recently from a woman who I hadn’t seen in a while, and she said, “There’s something that you’re doing that’s very zen. Keep doing it.” And I was like, “Well, I’m a painter.” But when I thought about it more, it’s really my cooking. It’s the first thing I do in the morning most days, just to get something in the fridge. Like painting, it’s very relaxing for me. I can put on a podcast or music and just be by myself.

And with entertaining — I want a beautiful environment, I want a low-stress environment, which is why I prep ahead of time. When you have a dinner party, there’s nothing worse than a stressed-out host.

A few days ago, I had Ceci and her boyfriend over and I made a Shepherd’s pie. It’s something that I baked ahead and served with a salad. And you know, the house was all decorated for Christmas… Ceci was like, “Oh my goodness.” And just a really simple place setting that’s elegant and beautiful, using cloth napkins, nice dinnerware; having the appetizers out before people come over, having the wine glasses out… It doesn’t have to be anything fancy.

How does your art-making practice coincide with cooking?

I think that people who are creative tend to be really good cooks. The visualization is really important, too; I can read a recipe and instantly know if it’s going to be good or not.

What, to you, makes a good recipe?

I have a few very reputable sources that are fabulous. Martha Stewart recipes aren’t great, they’re always missing something. My go-to place is the NYT Cooking app — you can’t go wrong. And I love reading the comments of people who try the recipes; they give you hints about ways to tweak it.

If I have a night where I know I’m going to cook chicken but am sick of the ways I’ve been cooking it, I’ll just check NYT. I found a chicken recipe with harissa last week, and it was so simple and so good.

When I first started cooking, my go-to was always Epicurious.com, but I really haven’t gone to them too much lately. And then I find stuff on social media, TikTok…

I love America’s Test Kitchen. Every year, they do a compilation of their recipes. I used to get those annually, but I tend not to buy cookbooks anymore; they just take up space.

And you have your binders.

If there’s a new recipe that I like, I’ll print it out, put it in a plastic sleeve, and put it in my binder. As you know, my original binder was getting too big, so I separated it into different ones. It’s a lot more streamlined, it’s so much better. If I’m making fish, I’ll grab the fish binder.

And it was a tag-team effort. Paul was like, “Don’t buy them, I have so many at work.” So he brought some home for me to use.

What are some of your go-to recipes?

In terms of everyday recipes, I love Ina Garten’s seared salmon. You cook it on the stovetop then put it in the oven. I always have salmon in my freezer or fridge.

We do chicken twice a week. What I have in my fridge is my chicken salad, which is more of a chicken paté. I can have that for breakfast, lunch, even dinner. I usually make a few salads every week. We love the Fred’s chicken salad, and also that one that you like, with the dates… I probably have five salads in rotation.

We do cod once a week. I’ll either do an Asian flair with it, or I’ll wrap it up in aluminum foil with butter, wine, leeks and carrots and kind of poach it.

I’m not eating too much red meat right now, but the marinated skirt steak is great.

For entertaining in the winter, I love doing a pot roast, shepherd’s pie…

What about appetizers?

It depends on who’s coming. My girlfriends tend to eat lighter and don’t like a lot of appetizers. Generally, gluten-free crackers, regular crackers, hard cheese (a sharp cheddar), soft cheese (I love the brie with mushrooms from Trader Joe’s), nuts, olives, salami. Pureed cauliflower dip, carrot dip… I tailor it to the crowd.

In terms of the crackers, I like dimension: basic crackers but also really pretty ones, swirly pastry puffs… I make my own flax crackers.

Who are your favorite kinds of guests to have over?

I have a group of young clients that I have over once a year, and they’re so much fun. I usually have a craft project that we’ll do — last time, it was terrariums with sedums.

I love having Ceci over solo during the week so we can just have a casual dinner together and catch up. I love having other couples over, too — three couples, including Paul and me. It fills the table nicely.

What are your dinner party etiquette musts?

As a host: it’s important to not be stressed out, don’t be frazzled. The way you greet your guests is so important. Don’t clean up until everyone is gone.

As a guest: be on time. If you’re bringing someone, let the hostess know; and if you’re bringing flowers, bring a vase. There’s nothing worse than having to scramble to find a vase. I think it is important to bring a small hostess gift.

What do you like to bring?

I bring really unique gifts. I’ve actually had people comment how much they love my gifts. I usually don’t bring flowers, sometimes I’ll bring wine… This year, I bought some beautiful things from the Jayson warehouse sale that will be my gifts for 2025. Sometimes I’ll bring a beautiful deck of playing cards — Misc. Goods has the most beautiful cards. If someone’s a cook and I have a favorite utensil, I’ll put a bow around it and give it to them.

What are some of your favorite utensils?

I don’t cook with any plastic. I use my wooden utensils a lot, and I have my favorite spoon and my favorite spatula, which is over 30 years old, probably. I don’t even remember where I got it from.

Cooking spatulas — Di Oro brand, BPA-free silicone. The spoonula is my favorite tool. I also love my Staub multi-function spoon. And these 9-inch tongs from Williams Sonoma.

What makes a well-stocked kitchen? What are your essentials for first-time cooks?

It’s important to have glass containers when you’re measuring out ingredients. And when you’re cooking, read the recipe twice, especially if it’s a new one, and have all the ingredients ready before you start.

I always have fresh lemon and lime juice in the fridge. It’s a pain to have to juice something, so it’s nice to have it in there. If I can cut up my veggies prior, I do — parsley, things that make sense to do ahead… I also make my own chicken and veggie stock and keep my veggie scraps in the freezer.

For measuring spoons — get a few sets, and don’t have them attached to each other. Put them in a sturdy upright container. During the course of a recipe, you’ll need a teaspoon a few times, and it’s nice to have multiple. I think I have three of everything, actually.

Get regular measuring cups, but also the OXO measuring cups. I like them because they’re angled, so you can see the measurement while you pour the liquid in. I recommend these four sizes: mini, 1C, 2C and 4C.

Sharp knives, a good cutting board, a bench scraper… I use that a lot. I keep my salt on the counter. I love my Beata Heuman Monster Pinch — a true splurge because of the shipping costs from England.

Have your spices organized so you can readily find them, and take a look to see if you need to restock something. I get all my spices at Spicehouse in Chicago. When I first bought them, I had the glass containers, and now what I do is buy the flat packages, which ship free.

What are some systems that you’ve put into place to keep your kitchen organized?

One of my favorite things to do is go thrifting, and I always go to the home goods section because I love buying older cooking materials. They were made so well, the heft is there... I bought a beautiful old pepper mill recently, I don’t think you’ve seen it yet — it’s wooden and small. It’s perfect.

I am very much opposed to plastic, so everything is glass. And I’m able to find these beautiful glass containers with flat lids that I can stack. No specific brand, but they’re made in the US, and they just work out so beautifully. They’re easy to clean, but you have to store them carefully.

I go through my fridge a lot; it’s very rare that there’s something rotting in the back. And before guests come over, I always organize everything and make it pretty because people love to look inside.

I keep my fruit separately in a drawer, and then I have my cheeses and appetizer-type things in the other drawer. I have all the condiments that I need, various vinegars… I keep my parsley and cilantro in the fridge, in water, because they’re just like fresh flowers. And when I get asparagus, I’ll do that, too, and put a bag over it.

I have these wonderful cloth bags [discontinued, but similar here] that I use to store my veggies. You wet them, you don’t want to get them soaked, but you want them to be slightly wet — with the exception of mushrooms. And it really does make a difference, they last a lot longer.

On my counter, I always have my onions, garlic, shallots, and squash.

How do you like to organize your pantry?

In my pantry, I store my cookbooks, I store my wine, I store my larger serving pieces… I have extra spices in there, different nut butters. I have flour — I’m gluten-free, so I have a gluten-free flour. If I’m at Whole Foods and something I use all the time is on sale, I’ll buy a few of them so I have it. I always have coconut milk, tomato paste, tomato sauce, and pasta.

The things that I buy in bulk are the seeds that I use to make the crackers. I like to store everything in my Ball canning jars (wide mouth), and I have these really great lids that I use. They’re all different sizes, so I’ll actually store my rice in those containers, lentils, beans… For the seed crackers, I pre-mix about five different servings so they’re ready to go. Very rarely am I out of something.

What advice would you give to a new cook or host?

Start small, just have a friend or two over. It shouldn’t be a stressful event. Make it fun — and the way I make it fun is to make it beautiful. And pick really great recipes.

Janet lives in Chicago with her boyfriend, Paul, and dog, Kayo. An avid outsider art collector, she appeared on Antique’s Roadshow last spring and continues to post her finds and creations on Instagram.

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